A Traveler's Tales

Being the musings of a alien - temporal and spiritual...

Thursday, October 27, 2005

The Dark Side of Idealism

For starters, it seems I’ll have to define my terms, since people generally complain about my usage.
Pragmatism = making decisions based on expected benefit, for yourself and/or others (roughly akin to Mill’s utilitarianism)
Idealism = making decisions based on absolute principles, without regard to consequences (kind of like Kant’s categorical imperative… though I hate to foist Kant on anybody)

That said…

It seems that no one has trouble finding the problems with pragmatism. It generally has a very nasty name in Christian circles, being identified with hedonism and situational ethics. And they’re right. Those are forms of pragmatism. They are not, however, the end and be all. “Benefit” may be defined in many ways, depending on one’s worldview. And at least one of those ways is profoundly Christian. [Think Augustine and Piper and enjoying God…]

Against the so-called evil of pragmatism, we are then presented with the good of idealism. This allows for absolute duties, which are very appealing to your run-of-the-mill fundamentalist. It is black and white. It’s not like that (despicable, evil, insert-insult-here) fuzzy postmodern world out there.

But, as is the way with man, a shift from one side of the pendulum to the other does not necessarily go from wrong to right. Normally, it just shifts to a new wrong. What the current Christian culture does not understand is that there is a dark side to idealism as well.

As with pragmatism, the dark side comes in the definition of the absolutes. Just as “benefit” can be defined in many ways, so can an “absolute.” More often than not, people define absolutes more widely than they ought and condemn when it is not warranted. The Christian community is rife with little legalistic rules for this and that – drinking, dancing, pianos in church, smoking, and any number of other stigmas.

Idealism is not “tolerant” (to use a much loved word of our age), and rarely merciful. If someone crosses one of the absolutes, he is rejected. Similarly, in an idealistic war (jihad, for example), the purpose is to kill the bad people. What sort of face is this to present to a dying world that we’ve been commanded to love?

Badly defined idealism is no better than badly defined pragmatism. It is wrong. It is not how we’re supposed to live our lives. It is most certainly not holy.

17 Comments:

  • At Fri Oct 28, 03:13:00 AM CDT, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I might agree... except that I don't. Badly defined idealism can lead wrong, to be sure... but I'm inclined to think that badly defined pramatism is worse.
    (I might explain this more when it's not 4 in the morning.)

    - Nic

     
  • At Fri Oct 28, 03:55:00 AM CDT, Blogger Campeador said…

    I would probably agree with Nic, and also say that while I tend naturally tend toward the pragmatic, in general, the ideal is a higher virtue. It's harder (and seems better) to follow the ideal - this doesn't mean there is no place for the pragmatic.

    Oh, and there is absolutely NO comparison between church pianos and drinking/smoking in the hyper-conservative circles I run in . :)

     
  • At Fri Oct 28, 04:06:00 PM CDT, Blogger Gabi said…

    Thanks for the vote of... errr... "confidence." :)

    So you really think that idealism is better, across the board? I grant, good idealism looks better than bad pragmatism... but that's not the issue at hand. Good pragmatism also looks better than bad idealism.

    What about Hitler's ideal of Aryan superiority? Bin Laden's ideal of radical Islam? Calvin's ideal of burning heretics? The ideal of the Operative in Serenity? (Yes, I suggest the movie to all and sundry... except maybe Carolyn.) Really, misplaced idealism can be just as harmful (I'm almost tempted to argue more) as badly based pragmatism...

    Whatcha think?

     
  • At Sat Oct 29, 06:33:00 AM CDT, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I had only skimmed your earlier post, so am coming from a different perspective. Yes, I would agree that bad idealism is bad, and agree with most of what Kanary said: namely, that good ideals are a more potent force of truth.

    However, in what way is pragmatism not practical? People become more passionate about idealism, but in what way does passion equate to practicality? Wouldn't the opposite be true?

    Gabi, I don't think good pragmatism can exist. Pragmatism by itself is a neutral force - it becomes good or bad when tied to an idealistic worldview (or lack thereof). But perhaps this is just confusing the issue...

    I should really try to take the Tao Te Ching into this - because I have a suspicion that ultimately Eastern thought is far more pragmatic than Western.

    My comment is somewhat disjointed by necessity, and I apologize. Also, I would caution against calling bad idealism worse than bad pragmatism. Stalin was an incredible pragmatism, perhaps the world's greatest. :) Ask Sanders. Also, I believe that Satan in the greatest pragmatist of all. Ultimately he believes in nothing besides himself and his own dominance - which, in a nutshell, is the essence of pragmatism.

     
  • At Sat Oct 29, 10:58:00 PM CDT, Blogger Gabi said…

    Well... if I answer you both, I won't get enough sleep tonight :). So I'll start with Firinnteine. Sorry, Josh, you'll have to wait a bit.

    I don't deny that idealism is a powerful force. It's a more powerful motivation due to the sheer numbers of people who prefer it and its emotional engagement. (People generally don't get too excited about pragmatism :).) Even I find an idealistic appeal, if given well, persuasive in the short run. But it only appeals to my emotion, which wears off after a little while. I need something more "substantial" to keep me going. But since idealism is the motivation of choice for most people in the world, it's something a pragmatic leader had best take into account when deciding how to address his people ;).

    And yes, I think your second point is true... and I would consider it akin to pragmatism, at least. The thing is, the better pragmatism and idealism get, the more they begin to look like each other :).

     
  • At Sun Oct 30, 01:09:00 AM CST, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Mmmm... bad idealism is worse than bad pragmatism. Good idealism is better than good pragmatism. (I use those words strictly as used in this discussion, because really neither idealism nor pragmatism can be right or wrong... they can simply be used rightly or wrongly, and do right or wrong things.) It takes both. By the way, I find it greatly amusing that pragmatism and idealism can be considered really separate, since pragmatism always means that people settle for getting as close as possible to the ideal.
    More... another time.

    - Nic

     
  • At Mon Oct 31, 10:08:00 PM CST, Blogger Derby said…

    After reading the last post (which was basically Kant vs Mill), it's obvious that both can be wrong. Everyone has ideals, including the pragmatist; the disagreement is whether it is permissible to break one ideal in pursuit of the same or a higher ideal.

    Both Mill's ideal (the greater good: do whatever you must to bring the greatest net good to the world in general) and Kant's ideal (the categorical imperative: do whatever you must to follow it, even when it will have a terrible result) are based on something other than God's ideals. On the other hand, both of the ideals you mentioned in the Serenity example (the actual situation, and the situation in which the captain takes the man in and hopes/trusts they get away) are correct: both value human life.

     
  • At Thu Nov 03, 08:03:00 AM CST, Blogger E E Holmes said…

    Your definition helps, somewhat. I do not usually hear pragmatism defined in that way, and I would strongly disagree with that usually defined thing.

    This, on the other hand...

    I don't like Mill. I really don't. But who wants to take Kant wholesale? I'd rather have a nice shiny little mean somewhere inbetween. Or above. Something like Ocham's Razor & Common Sense + Absolute, Providential Love.

    You already know my thoughts on administration, logistics, and planning. And the utterly maddening lack of sense, practicality, and desisiveness most people exhibit in such activities.

     
  • At Thu Nov 03, 09:55:00 AM CST, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    You guys and your Discussion...

    - Nic

     
  • At Thu Nov 03, 09:56:00 AM CST, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Gals, excuse me.

     
  • At Thu Nov 03, 09:08:00 PM CST, Blogger Gabi said…

    Josh:
    Yes, pragmatism has an "ideal" - what's in my/others' best interest. So it's "idealistic" in that sense - but I'd rather not conflate cause for acting and ideal. An ideal is something more...

    As to evil pragmatists... Yep, Stalin most definitely was one - a really effective one. As to Satan, however, I don't know if we can call him either. He's practically too warped to be either an idealist or pragmatist. (Considering my own definitions and not yours. :))

    Derby:
    Howdy :). Long time, no see. How's graduated life?

    ...and yes, I agree. Whether a pragmatist or an idealist, if your actions are not based on the will of God, you're heading in the wrong direction... to put it lightly.

    Emily:
    Oh, my roommate, I bow to your practical idealism. Long may it reign. :)

     
  • At Thu Nov 10, 10:54:00 AM CST, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    1. Nic, Kanary prefers "women."
    2. An Emily post on logistics, planning and descisiveness sounds interesting.
    3. Gabi, post sometime.

     
  • At Fri Nov 11, 07:50:00 PM CST, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    lol...Josh prodding Gabi to post...

     
  • At Sat Nov 12, 07:00:00 AM CST, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    lol yourself

     
  • At Fri Nov 18, 12:49:00 PM CST, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Ok...it's time.

    *steps over beside Josh and turns to Gabi*

    You know, it's really time to stir the pot again.

     
  • At Fri Nov 18, 12:50:00 PM CST, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Translation: Please post.

     
  • At Fri Nov 18, 05:10:00 PM CST, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Translation: We're bored, and need something to read. Now.

     

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